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DISCUSSThe Copeland/Huckabee Love Affair
01/27/2008
Billionaire evangelist oilman cattle rancher Kenneth Copeland, who sits so high atop the “prosperity gospel” pyramid that he has hundreds of “franchise” churches whose pastors send money back up the pipeline, spent much of his annual ministers conference last week talking about how he stonewalled the Senate Finance Committee, then boasted about having Mike Huckabee on his team.
“Kenneth Copeland, I will stand with you!” Huckabee yelled over the phone, according to Copeland. “You’re trying to get prosperity to the people, and they’re [the Senate] trying to take it away from ‘em. I will stand with you anytime, anywhere, on any issue!”
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You can watch the whole speech here, but basically Copeland is saying that he offered to hide his close relationship with Huckabee—the ex-governor had recently recorded a full week of televised “Bible studies” with Copeland, who constantly huckstered Huckabee’s ten-year-old book—but Huckabee said he would gladly oppose the Senate’s investigation of Copeland and others because “they only have an 11 percent approval rating.”
Every year Copeland invites about 1,000 fellow prosperity-gospel ministers to his church/broadcasting facility/ranch/natural gas field/airstrip in Newark, Texas, a few miles north of Fort Worth, for a three-day conference. This year he shut down the conference after two of the days and convened some kind of separate session with the same ministers that would protect his 501(3)(c) tax exemption while he raised campaign funds for Huckabee. Reports on Thursday morning were that he’d come up with $111,000 in immediate cash, plus an additional million bucks in pledges, which would work out to around $1,000 per pastor. (These sorts of fundraising efforts with the Copeland “family” are fairly common. About 30 pastors raised $2.1 million for Copeland’s 70th birthday celebration a year ago.)
The Door left messages for Huckabee and his press secretary over the weekend, but they were not returned.
Copeland spent much of the three-day ministers conference reassuring his fellow pastors that all their ministries were safe from the prying eyes of the Congress. He repeatedly made a distinction between the Congress and the Internal Revenue Service, saying that he recognized the executive branch but not the legislative when it came to oversight. He was especially upset by a request that he reveal the donors to a “special offering” made to himself and his wife for the 40th anniversary of their ministry and said that he’d “promised to God” never to give any information to anyone about that, even if it means prison or death. He frequently mentioned receiving direct instructions from “the Lord,” including instructions to put Mike Huckabee on his television show, Believer’s Voice of Victory.
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During his six programs with Huckabee, airing in November, the two men reminisced about their friendship and Huckabee’s political career in Arkansas, with occasional excursions into scripture. Neither of them distinguished themselves as Biblical scholars, but Huckabee’s comments were especially lame as he seemed to be sucking up to “Brother Kenneth” in discussing passages like James 1:3: “It is the trying of your faith that works patience.”
Huckabee’s read on that passage was that he used to think “trying” meant a trial of faith. (This is what 99 percent of commentators for the past 2000 years have also believed it meant.) But then, the more he thought about it, the more he thought the key word was “try.” It meant to “keep trying,” and every time you fail, to try again. “I tried tithing and it didn’t work. Well, try it again. I tried it three or four times. Well, try it again.” Huckabee’s view: it doesn’t mean to be patient when God sends trials, it means to assert yourself—in other words, the opposite of its apparent meaning. Since the Greek word for “try” as in “trial” and the Greek word for “try” as in “attempt” are two different words, Huckabee’s exegesis of this particular scripture is not only demonstrably wrong as a matter of fact, but he seems to be insisting on it as a way to support Copeland’s emphasis on tithing, which is the source of his fortune.
There are other examples scattered through the week, including some statements by Huckabee that, no matter what office he holds, “my only client is Jesus.”
Other highlights from the minister’s conference:
• Copeland seems puzzled by the fact that Senator Charles Grassley, who is spearheading the Senate investigation, was also the author of the Church Protection Act.
• Copeland talks about his natural gas company and says that the Senate’s suspicions about the source of that wealth are “bull.”
• Copeland’s characterization of his answer to Senator Grassley: “We gave them a several page lesson on ‘No’. . . . We gave them the address of the Internal Revenue Service in Washington, D.C.”
• Copeland assures everyone that he’s personally been a billionaire “a long time” and that his ministry has taken in $1.3 billion over 41 years. “I’m the seed of Abraham. The seed of Abraham are known for being rich. I’m a Jew. I’m a rich Jew backed by a richer Jew. God loves me just as much as he loves Jesus.”
Editor's note: Confronted about the Copeland statements on "Meet the Press," Huckabee did not deny that he said what Copeland said he said.
(This story includes reporting by John Bloom, Pete Evans of the Trinity Foundation, and Harry Guetzlaff of the Trinity Foundation. The Trinity Foundation press release can be found here. See our Copeland Collection here.)
did yer know that hes name means son of CAIN. an how eve had sex with the serpent and cain was there literal offspringg, see Arnold Muray fir more http://www.shepherdschapel.com/
google "arnold murray false teacher" and then RUN.....
Why not create the ultimate 'Dream Ticket Triage"? -PRES. Obama, VP. Hillary and Special Embedded Iraq Pullout Facillitator, McCain- all the strengths and weaknesses combined! All three together- 100% of the vote- something for everyone!
Go to youtube.com and type in "joe america us" and listen to this guy....he's got more sense than your above triage!!
Twenty five years ago, I left the NAME IT AND CLAIM IT GOSPEL, that COPELAND, and his group of pastors taught. I heard it on tape and had a Video with Copeland's lies on it. He also thought he was the Holy Spirit and was going to minister through the congregation himself... That is witchcraft, and I left the meeting never to attend one again, I requested my name and files to be removed from Copeland and many other of his friends, off their mailing list... They returned my files to me.
Yeah Penn, I too left the word of faith four years ago. I don't think Ken claimed to be the Holy Spirit but God was going to allow Copeland to minister to a congregation without his body!! Actually that was just as absurd! Copeland is a false teacher and in my opinion very close to being a heretic! Kenny is a fable teller just like his buddy Jesse DuPlantis!
We are not to put our trust in men anyway, but find out what God's word says for ourselves.
Yes, that's true, but we are also responsible and accountable to God for whom we allow to teach us. I was under the prosperity gospel for 12 years. I've had to relearn everything!! I thank God every day that he loved me enough to remove the scales from my eyes and remove me from that apostate church under John Hagee.
Typical Copeland response to someone who criticizes him! Years ago Copeland accused Walter Martin of hating his ministry. Now Ole Anthony "hates" poor Kenny! This is how these guys have operated for decades. Accuse people who disagree with them of hating them. I think more people are catching on to these "ministers." Copeland is shameless! Watch these videos and you will see his arrogance!
I believe the Gospel! Jesus has set me free, satan is the accuser of the bretheren, not other Christians. If you dont believe you have authority over demons & evil spirits, then tear the Gospels out of your Bibles, because it is obvious you dont believe the word of God.
It is only the IRS and Kenneth Copelands business what thier records contain. NOT Sen. Grassley. I watched the entire conference online, I beleieve you have taken some liberalities with your context and comments. may God reward you for your deeds.
There is not one of us who has it all together, NOT ONE - but for the Grace of God, I am at peace
So, you without sin, cast the first stone
God Bless
Pastor Stone
Wow! You hit the nail right on the head.
Who are we to judge especially when we know very little about the matter?
No stone throwing here.
I'm totally without sin, Pastor Stone! I don't believe the rubbish about "sin" -- I've never done anything that God has told me not to do, mostly because God has never told me what he does or does not want me to do! Yes, I will cast stones! Fraud is fraud.
The Bible was written by men, and inspired by greed. Copeland proves that beyond a peradventure of a doubt.
Jesus rebuked the false teachers of his day and so did the Apostles. Jesus also had a meltdown in the Temple with the MONEYCHANGERS!!
CHRISTIANS ARE SUPPOSED TO JUDGE FALSE TEACHERS AND FALSE DOCTRINE!!!
We are not supposed to judge hypocritically like the "judge not" and "touch not" verses say!!
So, unless you are fleecing your flock too....JUDGE AWAY!!
:"So, you without sin, cast the first stone":
john 7:53 to 8:11 is not fownd in the oldest manUscripts of the new testament. it was added in by the kenites,, it helps lower the standards.
Uh Huh!!Were your parents Brother and Sister by chance??
Don't be ashamed!!After all,look at Lot and his daughters!!!
By the way,let him who is stoned cast the first sin!!
i jus teach the bible as its was written, jus like jESUS did,
look it up their fir yerself,
CH,
What bible do you use? How do you know that about the kenites? I read that 14 books were removed from the NT back in the 1500's, and that "tithing" was added by man as well. I'd love to read more....
i jus use da bible that thar jESUS and hes desciples used, the lxx septuagint. fer new testanents i like the ast, or the majority english, or nrsv too! the king janes has lots a mistake. all of de old testamet qoutes in the new testmant are from lxx. that should sinch it.
then reed mroe, heres some of my favorties sites and subeject i like to discus fir starters...i'm not that big on arnold muray,.
http://www.fixedearth.com/
http://www.divinepageant.com/
http://www.bibletribes.org/
http://members.libreopinion.com/phineas/history_of_the_bible.htm
the histroy of the bibles
CH,
Are the "kenites" related to KENneth copeland??
who knows maybe distant couzins
The Lord Jesus Christ said to take the plank from your own eye, before looking at the speck in your brother's. It is about time the Church of Jesus Christ began acting as He commanded:
Love One Another! This is a farce and Hell is filled with those who have taken another of God's children before the heathen, with those who have refused to forgive, and with those who have accused falsely. I have heard of Christian Bashing, but from another who calls him/herself by the name of our Savior! It's time to look UP and WITHIN before looking out at another. As far as I know, the Christ is going to judge us all! As we stand before Him, there will be no finger pointing and we, alone, will stand to account for our own words and actions. May our God have mercy on those who contribute to this website.
What makes you so sure Copeland is innocent? Yes it's time for the church to start acting like the church. That includes weeding out false teachers with false doctrine such as Copeland's! You Copeland supporters really have no idea what this man teaches do you? His vast material holdings are but the tip of the iceberg! His whole theology is defective! In a nut shell the Word Of Faith teaches that we are "just as much the incarnation as Jesus is!" Oh yes! That's what they teach! So don't tell me to get the plank out of my eye! You need to check your doctrine, bub!
Why are Christians so afraid for these ministers to give an account of how the money is spent that is sent to them? It amazes me that you would not want to know? I am a Christian and I do not think it is an attack on any ministry for them to openly give an account to the partners or any individual that has contributed exactly how all these monies are spent. Let their be light in all areas of these ministries and the minister's lives. If they are not hiding something and wanting to keep it in the dark they should not mind this inquiry or any other one.
Aye, give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's. If you have nothing to hide then full disclosure is to your benefit. My concern with this coverage is not of religion but of rule of law.
Copeland is under investigation by the Senate and a presidential candidate said he will stand with him on any issue if he can flood his campaign with donations.
The president has pardon authority. If that point alone with the statement Huckabee made, is not basically saying "send money, if you get indicted and convicted due to that senate investigation, the president can pardon you, hint hint."
Give me a break, I wonder if Hillary made the same promise to Hsu.
Copeland didn't hide anything, he sent the Senate what it asked for.
Now whether he sent all his donors/s information is another thing, Constitionally he doesn't have to do that.
Your donations to any kind of charity are your own business and unless you are claiming it on your taxes is not anyone else's business, including the Senate of the United States.
It is no ones business what charity you give to so Senator Grassly has no right to even ask for this information. At any rate I know what Copeland stated on his website that his ministry turned over what was required by law and why should he be required to go above the law anymore than you or I would.
I don't think anyone here knows if the man is innocent or guilty but many here don't seem to care about what the Constitution says about, or at least it use to say it, about being "innocent until proven guilty" but I suppose the only ones here who would insist on that being upheld would be the ones already to hang the man on their own personal prejudices and opinions.
What happened to America and our freedoms and protections as American citizens?
Yes you're right we don't know if Kenny is innocent or guilty. However if it's proved that Copeland diverted ministry funds for his for profit businesses,then he's in big trouble! My beef with Copeland is his horrible theology! The feds shouldn't be involved unless there is evidence of mishandling of funds.
Hey geniuses wake up. Jesus talked about removing a plank from your own eye, he was talking about when you had like sin. Last time I checked Paul did alot of rebuking of peoples sin, like when Peter was rejecting the Gentiles because of peer pressure. Don't be absurd, there are lots of examples in the Bible where people legitimately called others on their sin, and moreover said they were heritics.
If you believe Kenneth Copeland is in error then you should be praying for him that God will bring him to the place of repentance! Yes it's true that Paul the Apostle confronted Peter. He confronted him personally first. If you have an issue with a brother you should confront him personally before publicizing his error or what you perceive to be his error. Personally I was quite impressed to see a Baptist man and a Word of Faith man fellowshipping together. Maybe if more christians would put aside their differences and denominations then we could finally attain to the unity of the faith which the Lord spoke of. At least Hukabee has made his stand against abortion and gay marriage known. If the church keeps picking apart fellow believers then we will see Obama or Hilary win. Is that what we want. Not me that's for sure!
I personally have a problem with anyone that teaches disobedience to God's laws but be that as it may who knows what Mr. Copeland does with his money? How many poor are helped by it? Perhaps Mr. Copeland obeys the word of God in that he helps widows and orphans or the hungry, sick or imprisoned? I for one do not know him or what he does with all the money so I will not say. In fact it would have been better; in my opinion, if this article sought to know these things rather than publically call into question the morals of either man. There are many who fleece God's flock and they shall face God someday, In Matthew 7:21-23 it speaks of those that prophesy, cast out demons and work miracles in Jesus name but Jesus tells them to depart from Him as He never knew them and that they practiced 'lawlessness'. These people mentioned are Christians or those calling themselves such as nobody else would be doing these things in Jesus name! So if anyone knows for sure of wrongdoing by Mr. Copeland then go to him in private and rebuke him for it and if he will not hear you then bring a witness or if two are not enough then bring him before the counsel of elders...otherwise I caution you to be silent!
I know this is a touchy subject with the Doormice, but sad fact is, Jesus doesn't do anything, either.
Tilton, Larson, Hinn, Copeland, Crouch, et al., ad nauseum are the most compelling proof one could ask for that Jesus is dead.
So I watched the Copeland videos. I looked for Jesus everywhere, but I couldn't find him. Instead I got the sneering arrogance of someone trying desperately to convince me he doesn't care, when it's there for the whole world to see that it's eating him alive. Didn't someone once say that where your treasure is, there would your heart be also? How ironic.
Like it or not we are all accountable.
More so if you are in a position of leadership (pastor, elder, teacher)
If Copeland/Dollar/Hagee etc. choose not to be accountable then God Himself can use the U.S. Congress to change law and force ALL 501c(3) organizations to reveal their sources and uses of funds.
Do you honestly expect your god to do anything, Bill?
Life isn't a John Wayne movie; the cavalry never comes over the hill in the nick of time. Jesus is dead or worse, as clearly proven by his insatiable and unabashed thirst for injustice.
It's all about you, and what you are doing. If you find this kind of exploitation offensive, then get off your arse and do something about it. But be prepared to pay a terrible personal price.
Been there, done that.
Wow. If pessimism were contagious, I'd be leaping from a bridge.
All you have to do is look at Jesus' record. Makes the old Tampa Bay Bucs of the '70s look like world-beaters.
Jesus is indistinguishable from a stone idol. Just how things are.
His followers have certainly been at times wrong, ineffectual, and un-Christlike; myself included. Also, there have been many who claim to be followers but are not; and so therefore, their errors have been wrongly credited to Christianity.
Jesus has certainly been effective for me (on too many levels to elaborate here) and countless others. If you disagree, that is your option. You are free to believe and state what you want.
Some witches say their spells work, too. They might, if you consider the talismanic effect.
I challenge every Christian to prove that his god -- and no other -- exists. And they always lose.
Prove that George Washington was a real person; not just made up in our history books...go ahead, "prove" it.
Besides, you're right. I can't "prove" God exists. Conversely, you cannot "prove" he doesn't.
Simon Greenleaf is known to law students more for his contributions to the American law of evidence than he is for his evangelism. His treatise on the subject is the first of its kind, and was the gold standard for much of the nineteenth century. I would submit that he sets the standard for how the Gospel claims ought to be evaluated:
All Christianity asks of men on this subject, is that they would be consistent with themselves; that they would treat the evidence of other things; and that they would try and judge its actors and witnesses, as they deal with their fellow men, when testifying to human affairs and actions, in human tribunals. Let the witnesses be compared with themselves, with each other, and with surrounding facts and circumstances; and let their testimony be sifted, as if were given in a court of justice, on the side of the adverse party, the witness being subjected to a rigorous cross-examination.
In proceeding to weigh the evidence of any proposition of fact, the previous question to be determined is, when may it be said to be proved? The answer to this question is furnished by another rule of municipal law, which may be thus stated:
A proposition of fact is proved, when its truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence.
By competent evidence, is meant such as the nature of the thing to be proved requires; and by satisfactory evidence, is meant that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond any reasonable doubt.
Simon Greenleaf, The Testimony of the Evangelists Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice, reprinted at http://www.bibleteacher.org/sgtestimony.htm.
If our enquiry is to mimic a legal proceeding, as Professor John W. Montgomery suggests that it should, then Anglo-American rules of evidence ought to be applied in a substantive manner. And this, in turn, causes an insuperable problem for the Christian advocate: namely, that every shred of the Gospel testimony is inadmissible hearsay. The problem is crystallized well by C.S. Lewis:
Believing things on authority only means believing things because you’ve been told them by someone you think trustworthy. Ninety-nine per cent. Of the things you believe are believed on authority. I believe there is such a place as New York. I haven’t seen it myself, I couldn’t prove by abstract reasoning that there is such a place. I believe it because reliable people have told me so. The ordinary man believes in the Solar System, atoms, evolution, and the circulation of the blood -- because the scientists say so. None of us could prove them by pure logic as you prove a thing by mathematics. We believe them simply because people who did see them have left writings that tell us about them: in fact, on authority. A man who jibbed at authority in other things as some people do in religion would have to be content to know nothing all his life.
C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity (New York: MacMillan, 1956), p. 53.
By that standard, it is quite easy to prove that George Washington lived. Conversely, it is impossible to prove by that metric that the Jesus of the Gospels ever existed. The authors of the Gospels are not reliable witnesses, as they can't even agree as to where Jesus is alleged to have appeared to the Endeka after his purported crucifixion. The stories cannot possibly be reconciled.
Remember that in a courtroom, the proponent has to establish the bona fides of evidence before it can even be considered. According to no less of an authority than Simon Greenleaf, the Gospels are useless. As he correctly notes in his landmark treatise on evidence, the Gospels would be classified as “permanent testimony” (or for those with a fetish for Latin, depositions in perpetuum rei memoriam), admissible “only in case of death or incapacity of the witness [which we obviously have here], and against those only who have had opportunity to cross-examine, and those in privity with them.” 1 Greenleaf, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence §321 (8th ed. 1857). Every bit of potential evidence just went into the round file. And without credible evidence that Jesus even existed, we'll never get to the clear and convincing evidence standard (I think Greenleaf set the bar too high).
By contrast, it's easy to prove Washington's existence to legal tolerances via admissible evidence. His obits would be enough.
Wow! Further evidence (as if any were needed) that lawyers are indeed the spawn of satan!
Kidding aside, I can't convince you; I'm not trying. I said from the outset that I cannot "prove" God (or the claims of Christianity) to the satisfaction of one who is predisposed to disbelieve. I do believe. So sue me.
Who's "predisposed to disbelieve?" I'm just inclined to, as the late Bob Passantino used to say, "insist upon evidence."
Let me illustrate my point this way: http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php. A simple question for Christians to answer: Why should I kiss Jesus' biblical transport, and not Hank's?
And I wouldn't call lawyers the spawn of Satan -- Satan might sue you for defamation. ;-)
Who is this God you don't believe in Bouldergeist?
We're all atheists in a sense; I just happen to believe in two less gods than you.
By way of example, let us assume, arguendo, that there is a God out there who is “powerful, intelligent, and moral.” Norm Geisler contends that if we reach that conclusion, it should inevitably lead us to convincing proof for the god of the Bible:
Is this the God of the Bible? At the burning bush, God told Moses His name and said, “I AM WHO I AM.” This signifies that the central characteristics of the God of the Bible is existence. His very nature is existence…. The Bible also calls God eternal, unchanging, infinite, all-good, and all-powerful. Since these beings are the same in all these respects, and there can’t be two infinite beings, then this God that the arguments point us to is the God of the Bible.
Norman L. Geisler and Ronald M. Brooks, When Skeptics Ask (Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1990) at 29 (biblical citations omitted).
It’s difficult to make a more ludicrous argument. What Geisler conveniently failed to mention is that the Bible tells us that the God of Israel is also a jealous god (Deut. 4:25). Granted, God may be powerful, intelligent, moral, and even sovereign, but that would hardly imply that God is also jealous. Quite to the contrary, one would presume that any God who possesses those other formidable characteristics has no cause to be jealous. Therefore, as the God we would logically postulate could not possibly be the god of the Bible, the god of the Bible must necessarily be a false god.
[continued] But it gets worse. Even if we postulate that God must be moral, it is difficult to credibly say that the god of the Bible is moral. The continued existence of Copeland, Larson, Hinn, Crouch, Dollar, et al., ad nauseum, and their failure to face justice for the consequences of his acts ought to be essentially conclusive in that regard, but even if it isn’t, your bloodthirsty ancient tribal sky-daddy’s covetous and genocidal nature is difficult to square with any concept of objective morality with which I am acquainted. After all, the Bible is replete with examples of his “infinite compassion”:
On the seventh day, they got up at daybreak and marched around the city seven times in the same manner, except that on that day they circled the city seven times. The seventh time around, when the priests sounded the trumpet blast, Joshua commanded the people, “Shout! For the Lord has given you the city! The city and all that is in it are to be devoted to the Lord. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall be spared, because she hid the spies we sent. But keep away from the devoted things, so that you will not bring about your own destruction by taking any of them. Otherwise you will make the camp of Israel liable to destruction and bring trouble on it. All the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the Lord and must go into his treasury.”
When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
It is an act that would have brought Adolf Hitler or Pol Pot to tears. Your ancient tribal sky-daddy ordered an objectively unnecessary act of genocide. Every man, woman, suckling child, and donkey was eradicated like vermin … and their only known “sin” was in being in the wrong place at the wrong time. What’s more, the god who supposedly has everything has a curious fet ish for gold. Selfish, covetous, unjust, capricious, jealous … not the kind of attributes we would naturally associate with God. It seems, rather, that we are not so much made in the image of God as your god is made in the image of man.
I don't believe in a lot of gods -- ElRon Hubbard kind-of tops the list. And for that matter, you probably feel the same way. It is just that, based on the evidence before me, Jesus logically belongs on the list of false gods.
'BUT SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS;
AND ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE ADDED UNTO YOU" MATT 6:33
Perhaps, Kenneth Copeland has sought the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness, and now "all these things" have been added to him?
Who are we to judge?
"BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE
LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS." 1JOHN 5:2
AMEN!
I pimped this story on Daily Kos. Hope it gets legs.
It got front-paged. A lot of Democratic pols and staffers read it, and more than a few newsfolk (e.g., Keith Olbermann posts there now). Hopefully, it will stay there long enough for it to get someone's attention.
Bouldergiest, I am a conservative I hope it get legs too. I am sick of the Copeland's and Rick Warren and Doug Pagitt types who hijacked christianity for their own agendas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoWKABi3LEA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs9nRvP-whk
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